Get Bent Sportfishing

Front Page Fish Counts Hot New Reports Arcade Tips And Tricks Weather Contact Us
Go Back   Get Bent Sportfishing > TACKLE > Tackle 101
Register Forum Search Today's Posts Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Tackle 101 School Is In Session - Questions, Answers, How To's, & Everything Else Tackle Related.

Coffee Grinders and Manly Reels

Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-16-2005, 12:38 PM   #1
Registered User
 
KaiMan's Avatar
 
Name: Kai
Location: Walnut, CA
Occupation: Student
Join Date: Mar 2005
Age: 28
Posts: 223


Hey everyone. Happy Saturday.


For many years now, I have switched over to conventional reels for our saltwater fishing trips. Coffee Grinders these days are just as nice aslots of manlyconventional reels. However, my fishing style calls for using a Convetional/Baitcasting reel more often than cofee grinders.


Although I know what the advantages of a Coffee Grinder is. (ALL in General Terms)
<UL>
<LI>Less Chance of Backlash
<LI>Can cast very light weights further
<LI>Easy for a Novice to learn</LI>[/list]

Disadvantages
<UL>
<LI>Line twisting machine
<LI>Drags are usually not as strong
<LI>Harder to reel in larger fish
<LI>worse line control to feel bait</LI>[/list]

Baitcasting/Convetional Reel Advantages
<UL>
<LI>Good Drag Systems
<LI>Casts further heavier baits/lures
<LI>Tough and can take more abuse
<LI>Good Line control for live baiting
<LI>Less line Twist
<LI>Eaiser on the Angler fighting a larger fish</LI>[/list]




Disadvantages
<UL>
<LI>Bird Nests for peeps learning
<LI>Sucks at light lures and baits
<LI>Beginners waste your expensive brands of Line</LI>[/list]

Anyways, Just wanted to know the opinions here on what yal think of my analysis, and which type of reels you use for light/heavy weight?


I only use spinning reels these days for finese fishing freshwater, and hardly every use one for salt.[img]smileys/smiley12.gif[/img]


I also realize now that baitcasters such as a Calcutta 200TE are so advanced that casting tiny baits is possibly. Although Distance is greater on casts with a spinning reel.





Edited by: KaiMan
KaiMan is offline  
Old 07-16-2005, 03:57 PM   #2
Administrator
 
Sinker's Avatar
 
Name: Tim
Location: Florida - USA
Vessel: 24' Sea Hunt BX24 - 250 Yamaha
Occupation: Looking For One - Kind Of :-)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 7,310


I am going to partially play the part of devils advocate here, offer some other opinions &amp; counter points to each item. See below for my own personal preference.


Although I know what the advantages of a Coffee Grinder is. (ALL in General Terms)
<UL>
<LI>Less Chance of Backlash </LI>
<UL>
<LI>If spooled correctly and not cast directly into the wind with light weight there is next to no chance of a backlash</LI>[/list]<LI>Can cast very light weights further </LI>
<UL>
<LI>This is the general consensus but not necessarily true. It is true for the vast majority of people but this is due to ability and not design</LI>[/list]<LI>Easy for a Novice to learn</LI>
<UL>
<LI>Agreed</LI>[/list][/list]

Disadvantages
<UL>
<LI>Line twisting machine </LI>
<UL>
<LI>The newer designs have anti-twist rollers on the bail - Conventional reels can actually have more of a problem with line twist when lures and riggings are tied on incorrectly and/or swivels not used</LI>[/list]<LI>Drags are usually not as strong </LI>
<UL>
<LI>Agreed, usually due to less surface area size and space also not allowing for heat dispersion. Although the Spin Twin by Accurate and Saltiga by Daiwa have impressive drags</LI>[/list]<LI>Harder to reel in larger fish </LI>
<UL>
<LI>Agreed due to leverage and design</LI>[/list]<LI>worse line control to feel bait</LI>
<UL>
<LI>Disagree, I believe both are equivalent here unless you are talking open bail compared to free spool and if you are then I say baitrunner / liveliner and give the edge to the spinning reel</LI>[/list][/list]

Baitcasting/Conventional Reel Advantages
<UL>
<LI>Good Drag Systems </LI>
<UL>
<LI>Good or Better ??? Reel dependent, dual drag systems with drags on either side of the spool are indeed awesome</LI>[/list]<LI>Casts further heavier baits/lures </LI>
<UL>
<LI>Agreed for the more schooled anglers who know how to use them. In general taking random fisherman the spinning gear will win. For the experienced fisherman yes you are right.</LI>[/list]<LI>Tough and can take more abuse </LI>
<UL>
<LI>other than the bail being easily vulnerable they both can handle what would be normal abuse - if you throw them down cliffs etc. then yeah maybe the conventional</LI>[/list]<LI>Good Line control for live baiting </LI>
<UL>
<LI>Disagree, I believe both are equivalent here unless you are talking open bail compared to free spool and if you are then I say baitrunner / liveliner and give the edge to the spinning reel</LI>[/list]<LI>Less line Twist </LI>
<UL>
<LI>Conventional reels can actually have more of a problem with line twist when lures and riggings are tied on incorrectly and/or swivels not used - The newer spinning reel designs have anti-twist rollers on the bail that are effective in controlling line twist</LI>[/list]<LI>Easier on the Angler fighting a larger fish</LI>
<UL>
<LI>Agreed due to leverage and design</LI>[/list][/list]

Disadvantages
<UL>
<LI>Bird Nests for peeps learning </LI>
<UL>
<LI>Along with even the most experienced angler from time to time</LI>[/list]<LI>Sucks at light lures and baits </LI>
<UL>
<LI>For the most part yes and cannot skip lures which is essential when needing to get your bait up under stings such a mangroves, up under docksetc. where you need to skip your lure or bait some times 10 feet back</LI>[/list]<LI>Beginners waste your expensive brands of Line</LI>
<UL>
<LI>ANY angler who even gets a backlash has damaged and weekend their line, expensive or not</LI>[/list][/list]

This debate of reels, mechanical design and engineering along with their performance will continue to be hotly debated forever I think.


My personal belief is that the design of the Conventional Reels combined with a properly spined/splined and built Casting Rod indeed offer greater lifting power and leverage for the angler over the spinning outfits. This has also been shown to be true in testing.


My personal preference is definitely conventional gear, even for light work. I do indeed use spinning gear and have a number of them as well primarily for skipping lures under docks and mangroves for Snook and Red Fish along with ultralight lures. Although I am proficient with conventional gear I still get occasional backlashes and am better at hitting a target (SIGHT CASTING) with spinning gear.


I could go on and on about this subjectwith both facts and personal opinion. Truth is both types of gear can catch extremely large fish that most of us only wish we could even have the opportunity to hook up to. So matter of preference matched with ability would be the appropriate choice here.


I know not common for me to get involved in posts regarding equipment because of the preference factor. I just do not like to get involved in preference debates or even offer equipment advice for the same reason. So in conclusion again my personal preference for the most part is conventional but for some specific requirements (like I will be doing tomorrow) spinning gear is the answer. Not looking to debate or argue just offering MHO &amp; counter points.
__________________
.A Premier Florida Sportfishing Website
Click the image to open in full size.

Sinker is offline  
Old 07-16-2005, 04:10 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Batman's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Location: Oxnard, Califas
Occupation: Student, Sales and amature truck hopper
Join Date: Jun 2003
Age: 22
Posts: 3,361


I am with tim on this one. Newer spinners dont twist line up and drags are better.


Only thing I donot like about fishing spinners with heavy line is that I have seen the bail arm bend some and it scared me.


I disagree with tim on his rod prefences. I prefer a properly spined acid rod


Batty
__________________
Dark Kings Jr. Member
Batman is offline  
Old 07-16-2005, 04:18 PM   #4
Administrator
 
Sinker's Avatar
 
Name: Tim
Location: Florida - USA
Vessel: 24' Sea Hunt BX24 - 250 Yamaha
Occupation: Looking For One - Kind Of :-)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 7,310


The engineering concept of the acid or spiral wrapped rod is sound. I just have a hard time getting used to the look of it. Although I have yet to see any tests on leverage and lifting power vs the conventional and am interested in that.


Batty bet you didn't expect that response huh... [img]smileys/[/img]Still gonna give ya a hard time about them.Edited by: Sinker
__________________
.A Premier Florida Sportfishing Website
Click the image to open in full size.

Sinker is offline  
Old 07-16-2005, 04:39 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Batman's Avatar
 
Name: Michael
Location: Oxnard, Califas
Occupation: Student, Sales and amature truck hopper
Join Date: Jun 2003
Age: 22
Posts: 3,361


I dont think there is any difference in lifting power. The main benifit that I like about it is that the rod doesnt twist. I havent hear of rods breaking from twisting but it cant be good.


I didnt expect that response and maybe ill have an acid rod for you to pull on at th ebatray derby


Batty
__________________
Dark Kings Jr. Member
Batman is offline  
Old 07-16-2005, 10:21 PM   #6
Moderator
 
Carnivore's Avatar
 
Name: Drew
Location: Thousand Oaks
Vessel: 23' Striper WA/ 250 Yami OB- blood thirsty
Occupation: Zebco Pro-staffer
Join Date: Oct 2003
Age: 43
Posts: 18,587


Sorry guys but I have fished both rods before and neither one ever TWISTED so I have no clue why this is such a debate!!! Use what ya like and don't if ya don't.


Oh and the EB series OkumaI would put up against any conventional in it's same line class. My EB 80 has better drag them my torium. (sorry had to throw that in).
__________________
Click the image to open in full size.Member
Carnivore is offline  
Old 07-17-2005, 07:11 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
Corr's Avatar
 
Name: Corr
Location: South Africa
Occupation: Retired & Fisherman
Join Date: Jun 2005
Age: 59
Posts: 1,931


I am not commenting on Reels any longer, Sinker has said it all! </v:stroke></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:ulas></vath><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shape></v:imagedata><o:lock v:ext="edit" cropping="t"></o:lock></v:shape>[img]smileys/[/img]


I have askes elsewhere if someone could explain"spiral wrapped Rods" to me, I am not familiar with the term.
__________________
Corr
Click the image to open in full size.
Corr is offline  
Old 07-17-2005, 10:31 AM   #8
Administrator
 
Sinker's Avatar
 
Name: Tim
Location: Florida - USA
Vessel: 24' Sea Hunt BX24 - 250 Yamaha
Occupation: Looking For One - Kind Of :-)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 7,310


Click the image to open in full size.


Click the image to open in full size.


Corr, Finadict can give you the background of this and the original designer of it. Basically a Spiral Wrapped Rod (also called acid wrapped because it looks like someone was on a bad acid trip) starts off looking just like a conventional casting rod but then the guides will circle to end up like a spinning rod. This is to take out the problems and effects of ROD TWIST or TORQUE. We have had a few discussions about them and tests have shown they do not effect casting distance but a leverage test has yet to be done on these.


Originally I thought it was mainly a California thing but the heavy duty bottom fishermen here in Florida also use them. I will say that many production rods are indeed built off spine/spline - I always check my rods before buying them to make sure they are right and have not yet had a problem with rod twist or torque.


Some of the other guys know much more than I do about these as I have never had a real interest in them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ko Tamura
Spiral Wrapped Rods - Written by: Ko Tamura



<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width=460 align=center bgColor=#ffffff>
<T>
<TR align=left bgColor=#ffffff>
<TD bgColor=#ffffff>


"Your rod's broken," "Were you on something when you built that?" "What happened to your rod?" These are all commonly heard comments when the uninitiated sees a spiral wrapped rod for the first time. The design is also known as acid and Robert's Wrap. As strange as they may appear, it is quite possibly the best way to build a rod for use with a conventional reel.


As the name implies, the rod is wrapped with the guides spiraling up the rod so that the guides closest to the tip are on the bottom of the rod the same as on a spinning rod. Rods built for conventional reels call for the guides to be wrapped on the top of the rod. Almost all rods are built like this, so it must be the best way, right? WRONG!


Rod manufacturers build rods that sell. A "weird" spiral wrap will not sell as well as a conventional rod, even if it is a better fishing tool. Manufacturers already sell more rods than one can shake a jig at, so why change? Most consumers stick with what is familiar and conventional rods are familiar.


The concept of spiral wrapping is not new. In fact, the original patent was issued in 1909. Those who choose to discredit this ҦadӠneed to realize that this "fad" is almost 100 years old.


The purpose of wrapping a rod with the guides spiraling to the bottom of the rod is twofold. First, there is no torsion or twisting force on the blank when the rod is under a load. Second, the rod is more stable under a load and the angler does not have to make an effort to keep the rod up with the guides facing up.
<CENTER>Click the image to open in full size.</CENTER>





Torsion is the twisting force on a loaded rod. This effect is most pronounced toward the tip of the rod. The tip of the rod is significantly thinner than the butt and therefore cannot withstand the same amount of torsion as the thick butt end can. Many anglers have noticed that their rod tips are often completely turned over when they are fighting a fish. This repeated twisting weakens the blank and would explain why many rods tend to break near the tip.
<CENTER>Click the image to open in full size.</CENTER>





Many believe that a properly spined blank will resist the effects of torsion, however, it makes no difference how the rod is spined. Torsion will always win over the spine. On a spiral wrapped rod, a tip will never twist because the line is already at the lowest point Ðthe bottom of the rod. When a fish is on end of the line, the line is being pulled down and toward the fish.


Spiral wrapped rods are more stable fish fighting tools. With the guides on the bottom, there is no twisting force from the line seeking the lowest point. The angler doesnմ have to fight to keep the rod upright. If the angler cannot keep the guides perfectly in line on a conventional rod while fighting a fish, the line and guides will create torsion as the line tries to go under the rod toward the fish.


Another common misconception about spiral wrapped rods is that they do not cast well. A correctly built spiral wrapped rod casts no differently than a conventional rod with the guides on top. The longest spiral wrapped rod I have built is a Seeker Ulua (9'3") and it casts no differently than my other conventional jigstick. The only noticeable difference takes place only after a fish is pulling on the other end; the rod is stable and no energy is spent fighting to keep the rod upright. My largest fish on an acid wrapped rod is a 65# yellowfin. The blank is a GUSA 70xxh paired with a Shimano Trinidad 40. It is built without a gimbal, but at no point did the rod want to turn over while fighting the fish. In addition to that rod, numerous yellowtail and a single albacore were caught on the Seeker Ulua with the same results.





Until recently, the only limit to spiral wrapped rods was that only ringed guides could be used. There was no way to use standard roller guides to move the line to the bottom of the rod. Fortunately, All-American Roller Guides now has "acid rollers" available. Will rods using these acid rollers become more common on long range trips? No one can say for sure. It is a hard sell to get anglers to even try these rods, but those who try them in earnest will likely be sold on them.


Advancements in all fields, not just in fishing, are often the results of a few daring individuals who are not satisfied with the status quo. Without any advancements, can you imagine what fishing would be like today? We would still be chasing fish in canoes using handlines with hooks made of bone or tortoise shell...at least until we drop off the edge of the flat world.


</TD></TR></T></TABLE>
__________________
.A Premier Florida Sportfishing Website
Click the image to open in full size.

Sinker is offline  
Old 07-18-2005, 09:11 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
Thresher's Avatar
 
Name: Frank
Location: Woodland Hills
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,448
Questions for any of you out there who actually own or tried these acid rods.

1. Have you noticed any loss of distance when casting?

2. Does the line touch the rod at any point with heavy pressure?

3. Any other problems/disadvantages you have come across when using and acid rod.

4. Will any high end blank suffice for acid rods? (seeker, calstar, arc, gusa, etc..)

Thanks




Thresher is offline  
Old 07-18-2005, 09:57 AM   #10
Moderator
 
Carnivore's Avatar
 
Name: Drew
Location: Thousand Oaks
Vessel: 23' Striper WA/ 250 Yami OB- blood thirsty
Occupation: Zebco Pro-staffer
Join Date: Oct 2003
Age: 43
Posts: 18,587


Questions for any of you out there who actually own or tried these acid rods.
1. Have you noticed any loss of distance when casting? Nope Some say they cast better but I think it is all in the person and they don'thaveany advantage or disadvantage.



2. Does the line touch the rod at any point with heavy pressure? Not if they are set up right but that goes for any rod.



3. Any other problems/disadvantages you have come across when using and acid rod. Nope



4. Will any high end blank suffice for acid rods? (seeker, calstar, arc, gusa, etc..)
Thanks THis I have no clue as I don't make them. I have only used someone else I don't own any.
__________________
Click the image to open in full size.Member
Carnivore is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:32 AM.



Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.5.1 PL1 ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2000 - 2010 Get Bent Sportfishing - All Rights Reserved

Saltwater 100 - The most popular fishing websites on the Internet!